Deep Insights #45 Elements of a Just Transition- Dr. Crispian Olver

Episode 45 August 29, 2022 00:40:18
Deep Insights #45 Elements of a Just Transition- Dr. Crispian Olver
Deep Insights with Mining Review Africa
Deep Insights #45 Elements of a Just Transition- Dr. Crispian Olver

Aug 29 2022 | 00:40:18


Show Notes

As global carbon emissions continue to rise, sea levels are not holding back, agricultural output has seen a staggering decline and the quality of our environment is being gravely compromised. In this episode, our multimedia journalist Hlengiwe Motaung talks to Crispian Olver, Executive Director at the Presidential Climate Commission, about how the mining industry can facilitate the journey towards net zero.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 0 00:00:00 If we don't start to bring the emissions intensity down. Now we gonna find ourselves shut out of global markets in the 2030s and 2040s. Speaker 1 00:00:13 Climate change is upon us. As global carbon emissions continue to rise. Sea levels are not holding back. Agricultural output has seen a staggering decline and the quality of our environment is being gravely compromised. Hi, I'm Rochelle beta. And in this episode, our multimedia journalist GUI tohu talks to Crispian over executive director at the presidential climate commission about how the mining industry can facilitate the journey towards made zero. Speaker 2 00:00:48 Hello, and welcome to mining review Africa on the deep insights podcast. My name is UE and thank you for joining us and tuning in today. As global temperatures continue to warm additional sea level rise is inevitable how much, and by when depends mostly on the future rate of greenhouse gas emissions, South Africa has top the rest of Africa's big carbon EMS with 471.6 million metric, tons of carbon emitted in 2019. The country, depending on core generation for its power has made commitments to reach N zero emissions by 2050, but is this feasible? So helping us unpack this very crucial matter is doc tech Crispian ova. He is the executive director for the south African presidential climate commission, Dr. Ova qualified as a medical doct in South Africa before joining government in 1994 previously, he held a position of director general at the department of environmental affairs and tourism, where he was responsible for developing south Africa's climate policy. He has subsequently worked as a policy expert and author on environmental sustainability and local government issues. Dr. Alva welcome, and thank you for joining us. Speaker 0 00:02:20 Good morning, cl were, and it's an absolute pleasure to be here. Uh, and thank you for that kind introduction. Speaker 2 00:02:27 Awesome. Dr. Ava, before we get into the session, just out of curiosity, when did you realize your interest and passion for the environment? Is it something that you that's always been there or was it fuel by the workspaces that you found yourself in? Just take us back to where it all began? Speaker 0 00:02:47 Well, I have always loved nature and, uh, the incredible wealth that our natural world brings, you know, to our lives and, and, and our enjoyment. So I'm an avid hiker. Uh, I'm a cyclist. I, there's nothing more, I love than switching off, getting on my bike and traveling across the landscape. Um, but these landscapes are under threat. So they're, you know, uh, they're incredibly beautiful and valuable and they give us sustenance as human beings. They produce the clean air that we breathe and the water that we drink and the food that we eat. Uh, so we depend on nature, but nature's very fragile. It's, it's under threat. And one of the greatest threats is, is climate. And you are seeing an exponential increase now in, in climate impacts. I mean, we're, you know, we're on the early start of this hockey stick curve, mm-hmm <affirmative> and, you know, we we've seen day zero in Gober. Speaker 0 00:04:02 We've seen the CA and floods mm-hmm <affirmative>, uh, we've had periodic long term droughts and food crises in the country. Uh, the bad news is that this is only going to accelerate. Um, we've already warmed by 1.1, 1.2 degrees, south Africa's warming at above double the global average. So we are getting particularly acute impacts mm-hmm <affirmative>. And we know that that warming is gonna have a devastating effect on agriculture, on rainfall patterns, on extreme weather events, particularly along the coastal regions, rising sea levels. So we have a, a moral obligation to respond to this. I mean, if humanity doesn't cut emissions, we are gonna bequeath a, a world to our children that they will not be able to live in. And there will be mass migration. Uh, in South Africa, we are gonna wind back all the development gains that we made, uh, since the end of apart eight, um, we've already got very high poverty, inequality and unemployment. Uh, if we're not proactive, uh, those are gonna be accentuated rather than improved. So, you know, that's, that's what drives me. I, you know, I wake up in the morning and I worry about these things. Speaker 2 00:05:32 Mm mm. So now let's get into the cracks of things briefly. Tell us about your role at the presidential climate commission and the climate commission. So maned. Speaker 0 00:05:46 So we, we were set up by the president, um, in December, 2020. So we, we saw a young organization and the, the, the basic job is to plan how we get our economy to what we call net zero. So that's a point at which the emissions, the residual emissions, the emissions that we really cannot abate are being offset by, uh, uh, natural sinks and carbon capture and, and other mechanisms, uh, we've, uh, tentatively set a date, uh, of 2050, which is what the, I P C this global collection of the best science and scientific minds in the world. So the IPCC says the world needs to get to net zero by mid-century. And every country is in the process, or has already set a net zero target some later than others. So China said, they'll be net zero by 2060 India said, there'll be net zero by 2070. Speaker 0 00:07:02 Um, there's obviously an obligation on developed countries to lead the transition. So we're expecting them to go net zero in the 2040s. Uh, the developing countries will follow later, but this issue of going to, you know, cutting down our emissions, there, there also economic interests at play. And what we need to be aware of is that, you know, we've got this electricity system that is driven by coal Coalfire power generation. Um, it makes our electricity, our power, very emissions intensive, and that emissions intensity then gets translated into the products that we produce. So what we export has these embedded emissions from our electricity system. And over time as countries cut their emissions, they're gonna want to stop what, what we call carbon leakage. So they don't want to be paying for expensive emission reductions in their country. Um, while other countries are not cutting. And they're just importing those emissions in so many countries are looking at this thing called carbon border tax adjustments, which is a way of compensating, basically stopping carbon leakage. And we stand to be penalized very severely. I mean, a lot of our core exports, our mineral exports are manufactured products. Um, uh, so there's some real, you know, there's, there's the, the imperative to emissions in order to stop climate change, but they're also economic interests. And if we are not careful, we are gonna find that our manufacturing sector gets liquidated because we still relying on this very emissions, intensive energy system, Speaker 2 00:09:08 Dr. Crispin, south Africa's mining industry employed over 458,000 people in 2021. Yeah. With slightly over a hundred thousand in the coal mining sector. Yeah. Do you think that this image transition will maintain or improve these numbers and, and what does the job creation within the green economy look like? Just take us through what the just transition framework says about the sustainability of the entire mining value chain. Speaker 0 00:09:40 Yeah. So you are right. I mean, there's, there's um, about 80,000 people employed directly in coal mining. There's another 10,000 people employed at CoFIRED power stations. Um, and then there's a whole ancillary set of jobs and livelihoods linked to value chains, supporting that, you know, in including all of the basic services that mining communities need to, to support themselves. So we're talking about significant job numbers and those jobs are at risk there's. There's no doubt about it. Um, we, we are not completely clear about the timeframes of this transition. Uh, we know that many of our coal fired power stations have reached the end of their lives. Uh, we have to be taking the morph group because they're just breaking down too often and it's too expensive to maintain them. So there is a program for decommissioning power stations, which Escom has come up with and, uh, which, you know, makes logical sense. Speaker 0 00:10:58 Um, the obvious criterion for decommissioning is that we need to make sure that we have power to replace it. So we can't decommission into another energy crisis. We've gotta ramp up renewables and ramp up battery technology and ING plant capacity, like gas, fire power stations. So you've gotta put that in place to enable the decommissioning so that we've got quite a good handle on, we know what sort of power is needed. We've got, uh, various inter interventions through the R E I four P the other procurement processes that Escom has launched. Uh, so all of this is being brought on and the decommissioning is being planned. What we don't know is how long the global coal market is going to hold up. Mm. So, you know, a lot of our coal is exported, um, uh, you know, some coal miners supply Escom exclusively. So they are probably more at risk. Speaker 0 00:12:06 But our, our understanding is that, uh, as the global climate impacts accelerate, and the world starts to take stronger and stronger action to cut emissions, you're gonna see first coal dropping off dramatically. And we reckon that drop is coming in the 2030s. So it's, you know, it's, it's, it's seven, eight years away for a dramatic drop in pole. I mean, coal will still be used into the 2040s and maybe some into the 2050s. Uh, we've got grapple with the, uh, our big problem is that Medupi and have only just been built. So, uh, logically we need to run those power stations into the 2050s, and there's some hard calculations about whether we can afford to decommission them earlier. So there's, you know, there's, there's definitely gonna be a tail to cold use. It's not gonna end tomorrow. Um, but we think the transitions coming a little bit faster than a lot of these coal companies are making out. Speaker 0 00:13:20 In fact, some of them, quite frankly, in the way that I talk to them seem to be in denial about the nature of the transition and the speed with which it's coming. Mm. Now we can debate that, you know, these are market forces. They came to understand the market better than we do. Um, uh, I, you know, we can have a debate about it. What we can't not do is the, I mean, we cannot be ill prepared for the transition when it comes. Mm. So we are insisting that we start now to put in place the mechanisms to ensure what we refer to as a just transition and adjust transition means people that are most vulnerable in this transition. So the workers in the coal value chain, the communities link to them, rural communities that rely on subsistence, agriculture, poor communities, women, and young people, everyone that stands to lose the most in this transition, they should not be the ones bearing the cost. Speaker 0 00:14:31 You know, this is, this is a transition that's caused by a set of high polluting, largely Northern developed countries. Although, you know, industry and coal mining and park generation in South Africa has contributed to the problem. So those industries and countries should be bearing the cost of the transition, not workers on the ground. The best way to support workers to transition is to be transition, transitioning them into other jobs and preferably equivalent jobs. Uh, you know, most coal miners don't want to go farming necessarily, um, or even go and work in renewable energy manufacture. So, uh, the best alternative for coal miners is, is another mining job. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And fortunately, you know, the, the climate transition is not the end of mining. Um, we are gonna need considerable minerals for the future green economy. Um, and that includes iron and steel. Absolutely. Um, uh, you know, for wind turbines and solar PV infrastructure, um, it includes, uh, the PGM group, uh, for, for the hydrogen economy that's coming. Speaker 0 00:15:54 It includes, um, you know, things like lithium venatium, uh, which go into batteries, cobalt rare Earth's Popp, of course, and south Africa's well endowed with these minerals. I mean, we've, we've got a huge amount of them still in the ground, uh, unexplored. Um, and they're, you know, we've gotta work out how, how we get that mining economy for the future green economy going now. I I'm very encouraged by what some of the big mining majors are doing around. A lot of the mining majors have signed up to net zero targets, and they're, they're doing their operations in a low carbon way. I mean, I'm was extremely impressed with Anglo's hydrogen powered vehicle at the Mahol corner. Mine, you know, that's the way of the future. Speaker 2 00:16:51 Absolutely. Speaker 0 00:16:52 Um, many of these companies, I mean, Azaro, uh, owns a huge renewable company they've installed vast amounts of solar, uh, and, and, and, and wind power generation to, to, to drive their minds. So, yeah, this is the future and the Fu many mining companies are embracing it and they're doing it, and it's fantastic. It's to be welcomed. Mm. Um, Speaker 2 00:17:18 So, sorry, doc, doc, sorry. I need to interject a bit there. You're getting into my future questions. Speaker 0 00:17:25 <laugh> okay. <laugh> Speaker 2 00:17:28 And I need to ask these questions. You, you sat on a panel at the call and energy transition there and stated this, and I quote, the transition is coming, and we can argue about the pace of it, but it is going to be impossible to have a conversation with the industry if we cannot get past the, the basic denial around the transition. So firstly, our coal miners in denial and, and what has been the generic response with, with your interaction with the, uh, coal mining sector? Speaker 0 00:18:06 So there there's been a long term, you know, back back in the day when I was director general for the department of environmental affairs and tourism, um, organized business and it, it wasn't just the mining sector. It was a lot of the higher ERs and the high energy users. Basically, they, they, they didn't buy into this climate transition stuff that we were talking about and the strategy that they pursued was obfuscation delay, uh, you know, putting doubt in the system, questioning the science. Um, that was 20 years ago. Uh, uh, I think a lot of people have now woken up to the risks and they've woken up to the economic risks and they're working actively with us around how do we navigate this transition? Cause you know, we're not just saying, go and do it on your own. I mean, you know, government needs to stand behind business as it navigates this transition, but a couple of companies are, you know, completely blind to it. Speaker 0 00:19:23 And they're continuing to raise completely bogus technologies that are not gonna come to, uh, the solution. So, you know, there there's this fiction that's, Pedald about clean coal and the idea behind clean coal is that somehow you can partner it with a carbon capture process. Mm-hmm <affirmative> that removes the CO2 emissions. Do you believe in that? No. Well, the physics don't add up, I mean the physics of digging coal off the ground, um, burning it to release energy and then recapturing those emissions, concentrating them and putting them back in the ground that, you know, you, what you gain in energy in the combustion process, you losing the capture process. Speaker 2 00:20:22 Is it practical though? Speaker 0 00:20:24 It's it's it, it will never, you know, we, well, let me just say we will use carbon capture for some really hard to abate sectors mm. At the end of our transition process. Mm there's. Some emissions that we are really gonna struggle, uh, uh, to cut capturing, I mean, not least because you know, know animals and humans, burp and fat, you know, it's what, what, one of, one of our physical realities <laugh>, um, <laugh>, and, and those that produces methane, um, and, you know, methane is a very potent greenhouse gas mm-hmm <affirmative> um, and unless you slaughter all your animals, you'll never be able to get rid of it. I mean, you can change their feed, you can reduce the met emissions by a certain, but Speaker 2 00:21:14 You'll still get it. Yeah. Speaker 0 00:21:15 You'll still get some of it. So there, you know, and, and they're similarly, you know, there's some industrial processes where it's gonna be very difficult to find alternative technologies. So carbon capture is going to play a role with those very end of transition, hard to abate sectors, but it's costly. And regardless of the innovation that that takes place, it will always remain a fairly costly process. It is not the answer to the coal market. You're not gonna continue to burn coal on a mass scale and then capture the emissions in a way that's cost competitive with say renewable energy and battery storage, which, you know, works as a package for a new, a new low carbon energy system. Um, Speaker 2 00:22:08 So then it's, it's safe to say that this capturing of, of the missions within the thermal call is not so practical at this point in time. Speaker 0 00:22:20 Well, it's what I object to is the way that carbon capture and storage is used. And you will see in the way, you know, in the conversations where it's introduced, it's basically being introduced to say the coal market is gonna hold up forever. Speaker 2 00:22:40 I Speaker 0 00:22:41 See. Um, and that's what I mean by denial. Mm. Um, it's, it's, it's not gonna happen. The transition is coming. Let's prepare for it. I wanna make sure that the workers on the ground and the communities that are gonna be affected by this transition, um, are taken care of in the process. We need to start getting ready. We need to carefully look at the mind rehabilitation funds and make sure that they're adequately capitalized, because you know, all of this, land's gotta be restored back to its original agricultural purpose or repurposed for the, the new green energy economy and, and, and the green industries that we, we can bring in place. Um, uh, so, you know, let's start getting the mechanisms in place. Let's be prepared. Um, we are not gonna artificially constrain, uh, the coal market. That constraint is gonna come because the global market's gonna move truly, it's gonna move. Um, and if you think, if you are ping this idea that it'll, that it's gonna hold up forever, you are doing both yourself and the rest of the country are grave deserves. Speaker 2 00:24:05 Mm-hmm Dr. Alva, as you've mentioned before that south African mining companies are slowly jumping onto the green wagon by acquiring renewable assets. We've seen Xara, as you said, with synergy Anglo-American with the hydrogen track and recently CE resources with Lin wind labs, Africa, and wind solar. Speaker 0 00:24:27 Yeah. That was exciting. Speaker 2 00:24:29 <laugh> especially after your standoff at the energy and cold transition day with the CEO, Mike Dick <laugh>, this certainly shows a keenness to the transition, but is it enough? Speaker 0 00:24:46 Well, these are very important initial steps. And I mean, I, I was very interested in, uh, Mike take care's subsequent article and their, uh, investment decision, and it's certainly the right way to go. And I think it's a very important investment decision. I mean, uh, uh, and, and there's a tacit recognition there. Uh, they're accepting that there is a transition and that there is a risk and they need to diversify that risk by having a stake in the future new energy economy, uh, great decision. Uh, a lot of coal mining companies are doing that. Um, and I think it's very significant. Uh, we are gonna obviously have to do a lot more, but sure. The, the most important thing to do now in the, in the 2020s is lay the foundation for the more aggressive moves that we are gonna make in the 2030s. Absolutely. So, you know, standing still now is suicidal. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, you, you, you, you will, you will be eclipsed as a market player if you, if you don't move now, um, what you've gotta do is create the foundation for you to have more options in the 2030s as the real big market shift start to happen. Speaker 2 00:26:17 And Dr. Alva, I think it's also a very important thing as, uh, the climate commission to also commend those mining companies that are really trying their best to lay their foundation towards net zero. You know, it's not, it's not all about telling them, you know, we need to get to net zero, but as they come up, as they try introducing renewable assets, I think also it's very important to commend them and say, Hey, you're doing well. Keep going. Speaker 0 00:26:46 No. And, uh, and, and don't get me wrong. I mean, I, I really applaud the kinds of moves that have been made. I mean, I think ex's commitment to a net zero target is to be applauded. Yeah. I, uh, I love the work that they've been doing around economic diversification linked to their coal mines. Mm-hmm, <affirmative>, uh, I think it's, it's best practice. It's a way to go. Um, you know, so, and, and all of this is to be encouraged and, you know, we would absolutely, we would, we would say, you know, uh, let's, let's just make this standard practice across the industry. Mm-hmm <affirmative> so, you know, let's set up our just energy transition offices. I mean, some of the leading companies have already set up just transition offices. Let's make sure that ESG is embedded in the way that the board thinks, Speaker 2 00:27:42 And it's not just a name. It actually Speaker 0 00:27:45 IST better. Yeah. It's just a name, you know, E E ESG is about doing business responsibly, um, and it's core to business, uh, and it's ultimately builds long term success in the kinds of markets that we are entering into. So make sure you've got a director that understands the ESG game mm-hmm <affirmative> intimately and helps keep raising this consistently at a board level. Let's make sure that we are reporting on climate risks and we are doing our climate disclosures. I mean, there's a whole range of best practice guidelines. The JSE has issued, uh, you know, a really good, solid, easy to implement set of guidelines. Uh, all that companies need to do is embrace them, you know, whether you listed or not. I think every company should be taking up and implementing those guidelines. Um, yeah, Speaker 2 00:28:42 Absolutely. I agree with you then. So, so now doc, let's talk about taxes south Africa's lawyer emissions development strategy, as you know, mentions various tax incentives for companies investing in green assets. Can you talk to us a little bit about that and mention some of the requirements for companies to get those tax incentives Speaker 0 00:29:08 You're talking to the wrong person? <laugh>, uh, I mean, I'll, I'll, I'll have to wheel in the national treasury tax people to talk to you about how to tap into the incentive, Speaker 2 00:29:19 But does this help, does this help wall coal miners into investing into green assets? Speaker 0 00:29:26 Definitely. I mean, so the conversations we've had with treasury and we we're largely add IM about this is how do you put the economic incentives in, into the economy so that we can reinforce, you know, the change that is happening and we can start to properly price the, the environmental cost of emissions, um, and, and of practices mm-hmm <affirmative>. So what treasury is doing is steadily injecting a carbon price into the south African economy. Mm. And that's not simply because we want to penalize higher meters mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, but we're, we're sending a very powerful price signal that you need to systematically start cutting your emissions mm-hmm <affirmative> um, and by having an effective carbon price in the economy, you are also able globally on global markets to hedge this risk that I was talking about. Mm-hmm <affirmative> of having our products shut out. So, you know, if we, you know, if, if our carbon price is equivalent to the carbon price that exists into the country that we are importing into, then we are not liable for the carbon border tax adjustment. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So it, it makes, you know, this is, this is about ensuring the long term economic competitiveness of our country. It's not about penalizing high emitts. I know that, you know, every time the carbon tax gets warmed up and treasury says that they're gonna be removing some of the allowances, there's an outcry, uh, from business that, you know, you're taxing us into oblivion and we, uh, we gonna become uncompetitive. I don't agree. I, I think carbon pricing is probably the single most effective mechanism we've got mm-hmm <affirmative> for incentivizing the change that's needed. Speaker 2 00:31:37 Let's get a little bit more technical. So the carbon, uh, total carbon budget, you mentioned at the colon energy day for South Africa is between seven and nine gigaton of CO2. Yeah. What exactly for novice like me does this mean we need to do practically. Speaker 0 00:31:59 So we are working on detailed scenarios around our carbon budget, because as the commission, I mean, I, I spoke earlier about net zero and the date for net zero. Um, I'm actually less focused. I'm less worried about the date at which we get to net zero. Uh, the real issue is the area under the curve of our emissions trajectory. So, you know, we're, we are here at, you know, 500 megatons per ANU, and we need to get to zero or net zero by 2050. So that's, that's a curve. And the area under that curve is the budget. It's the, it's the total carbon budget. So you could get to net zero later, but if you drop earlier on the curve Speaker 2 00:33:01 Now, mm Speaker 0 00:33:02 You can bring your carbon budget down. Um, I think it's gonna be quite hard to get that. Um, and we're doing some scenarios so that we can understand a little bit more carefully what the implications are of different carbon budgets. So for instance, to get to seven or eight gigatons as a carbon budget, we would effectively have to close Sassal in the 2030s. Uh, we wouldn't have time for Sassal to make the transition into green hydrogen and to implement their net zero strategy. Now, I don't think that's something we can do. You know, I, I, I don't think we can hobble, you know, Sassal is our best play at large scale industrial production of green hydrogen. And I think at all costs, we need to make sure that the company survives and is able to get, uh, to, to the point that they need to be. I mean, the important thing in this transition, there's a lot of uncertainty. You must do the no, you know, Le no regret early stage investment. Mm-hmm <affirmative> that positions you for more aggressive stuff later. So we, we wanna have options available in the transition Speaker 2 00:34:30 Doc. Let's now talk about investments. So Europe Coburn rate has seen a significant rocket since the conflict between Ukraine and Russia. And this has caused an uncertainty, as you've said for investors looking into, go for going for renewables. How do you then war them back in? Speaker 0 00:34:53 Yeah, I mean, the, the, the European energy crisis, I think, is very instructive. Um, and it's had an interesting, I mean, there it's had two effects. So the one is obviously this return to coal, uh, as the, as the gas prices have literally gone through the roof. I mean, it's unbelievable, uh, the, you know, like 400% escalation in, in, in gas process. Um, the other thing that's driving, which is gonna have long term benefits on the climate agenda is it's really accelerated the move into renewables and storage technologies. Mm. Um, so there's a little bit of a bifurcated response. You know, people are making a, a big halloo about how it's a backwards step for climate. Well, yes, in the short term, um, but you're seeing a, an aggressive, uh, scaling up of investment on the renewable side of the equation as well. And I think that's gonna stand the world in, in very good stead going forward, Speaker 2 00:36:06 Doctor, uh, uh, Alva. Thank you. Thank you for, for those points. And I think I need to also go back to a point that you made earlier on that certainly this does not mean it's the end of call. It's certainly not the end of call. I mean, we still have, um, met iCal or cooking call. That is a key ingredient in still making, as you mentioned before, and, and it's, and still is really an essential material for modern life. And, and it's very important that you did mention that it is not the end of call, but we need to start, uh, uh, low emissions at this point right now, it's, it's not really about 2050, but it's about starting as is now. And I think that's very important. Um, your final words, not only to south African minors, but to general citizens as a civil servant to yourself, what is your final word of encouragement, your, your call out for citizens of South Africa in terms of climate change and really preserving our environment? Speaker 0 00:37:13 Well, let me say we, you know, we, we are a uniquely gifted country in that we've got this incredible set of natural resources, and we built our energy system and our industrial system on one of them, which is coal, but we're equally gifted with renewable resources. Uh, we've got some of the best wind and solar in the world. We've got many of the minerals that we need to make the, the future energy economy work. And South Africa can be a major player, uh, in the future. Um, and I know we tend as south Africans to really get wrapped up in a lot of our own problems. And, you know, we, we have been through a period of declining state capacity, and we've seen a lot of our indicators, poverty, inequality, unemployment safety, and security, all seeming to get worse. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, um, I think we can bold a powerful competitive economy that grows employment and gives livelihoods to all of our people. Speaker 0 00:38:31 And we've got a unique way of coming together in moments of crisis, uh, to come up with the solutions. What's very clear to me is that this climate transition needs all of society to make it happen. Uh, it's, there's no ways that government can be the driver of this. I mean, government has an important regulatory role, but this transition needs to be embraced by, uh, businesses, by workers, by NGOs and communities by the science community. We need all of these people playing roles in the thing. And what we try to do is the climate commission is provide a little bit of a sort of convening space so that these stakeholders can find each other and come together and make this transition a reality, Speaker 2 00:39:27 Absolutely commendable there, doc, um, Dr. Ova, we have come to the end of our session. Thank you for the valuable insights into the work that you do and the zeal for preserving the environment. Your name will certainly be loaded for generations to come, and, um, we wish you the best of luck Speaker 0 00:39:48 At the, no, thank you, Cindy Speaker 2 00:39:50 PCC, and, and certainly hope that your efforts do come to fruition. Speaker 0 00:39:54 No. Great. Thank you. Thanks. Thank you for the opportunity to share my views, Speaker 2 00:39:59 Dr. Crisp Oliver, ladies and gentlemen, the executive director for the south African presidential climate commission. Thank you for tuning in and until next time bye-bye Speaker 1 00:40:11 Thank you for listening. Remember to like share and subscribe to deep insights for more mining news, visit mining until next time. Goodbye. I.

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