Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: From unsafe working conditions and gender discrimination to limited representation in leadership, women face significant challenges in the male dominated mining sector. Yet by uniting, women are building networks, advocating for change and breaking barriers.
Hi, I'm Rachelle Bouta and in this episode, senior multimedia journalist Zondali Dukey speaks with Raksha Naidu, chief executive of the Particle Group and chairperson of Women in Mining South Africa, about the progress women in mining have achieved. Let's explore the ongoing journey of women solidifying their place in the industry.
[00:00:47] Speaker B: Raksha, thank you so much for joining us.
[00:00:50] Speaker C: Thank you so much for having me.
[00:00:52] Speaker B: So Raja, please tell us about Women in Mining. What is the organization all about?
[00:00:58] Speaker C: The Women in Mining South Africa was created about 14 years ago and we're a nonprofit organization which was effectively created to build a community for women in the mining industry.
I think, you know, we all know old boys clubs and you know how those things work in the industry. And you know, I think a lot of women were looking for a place where they could go and be themselves and a place where they could go and meet other like minded individuals who, I guess, who understood some of the challenges that they were experiencing with the mining industry themselves, as well as a place where they could probably learn from one another and find respective mentors and understand what, you know, I guess what was different about being a woman in the space. So over the 14 years, I think that the, our committee and our community more than anything has evolved so much and now, you know, we are solely focused on creating a better world for women in mining and through mining. And I think we built such a beautiful sisterhood, a beautiful community and I think, you know, we lend a lot of support to one another and navigate various different challenges, good and bad. I think that sometimes we all experience, we're a bunch of volunteers from a committee perspective and we do this because we so strongly believe in, you know, in helping one another and creating a better society for women in this industry.
[00:02:17] Speaker B: Why is it so important for such an organization to exist and be established in a country especially like SA and in an industry that is so very male dominated?
[00:02:28] Speaker C: I think it's exactly just that. Right? Because it is so strictly male dominated and it has been for the longest of time that I think that as more and more women are finding their space in this industry and starting to find their voices and to stand up against the discriminations and the prejudices that exist for women, I think this community is necessary. I think that, you know, a lot of us experience a lot of discrimination in our spaces and throughout our Career journeys and a lot of times we feel like it's just us. And I think when I met a lot of people in the WMSA community, I realized and I learned it's not just me and that other people have gone through similar experiences. And I was able to learn from what others have gone through and how they navigated themselves in different spaces. And for me personally, it's so important, and I know a lot of other women in our community, it's so important for us to give them back to others. Right. And to be voices that younger generations and the future leaders can lean on and learn from and like, you know, hopefully not make some of the mistakes that we did as well. And I think, you know, from a South African context, you know, there's so much of work that's being done. And I think, you know, the mining industry and the mining community, the mining houses, the minerals Council, you know, organizations such as wmsa, we all are collaborating the same direction to bring about change and bring about more gender parity. And in the last couple years we've seen a shift and you know, we've seen the numbers of female representation increase within the sector. It's not increasing at the rates that I think we'd all like it to, but it's definitely getting better. And I think, you know, it's, it's needed in order for us to bring about change and to, to grow this industry even more. Because women, women have a very different place, they lead very differently. And I think that, you know, organizations like WMSA play a role in, you know, helping facilitate that as well. So it's super important in our space. And I mean, South Africa is one of the mining, leading mining economies in the world. So we need to stand strong in terms of bringing about that change as well.
[00:04:20] Speaker B: What are some of the major challenges you would say that women in the industry face?
[00:04:28] Speaker C: You know, I don't know, I'm probably going to get a fair bit of kickback from a lot of people for saying this, but I think one of the biggest challenges we face is that we are women. I think that, you know, there's, you know, this is still such a strongly male dominated industry and I think that men still discriminate and believe that women are not capable of doing certain things. You know, there's, there's obviously a strength factor because women, you know, necessarily may not be as strong as men in doing certain tasks. Supposedly, as a gender stereotype goes. I mean, I know so many unbelievable mining engineers and geologists that are women who work underground, and they stand strong against their male peers and their male colleagues.
Another reason as to why I say one of the biggest challenges we face as women is being a woman is because I think sometimes our biggest enemy is ourselves. I think a lot of the challenges that we also experience and that we also see are that women themselves become one. Their own block or their own hindrance. And I think a lot of discrimination we find from other women against women is becoming a challenge as well. I think that there are so many people who find their space in this industry, and they don't want to give back and help others. They don't believe in lifting others and creating the change so that it facilitates a lift and a rise of a nation as females completely. And I think that there's so many different things that come as a result of that. Women themselves need to take control of their own destiny. You know, we need to take control of our own development. And I think, you know, we all have the voice to use. We all have the capabilities within us, and sometimes, you know, there's that lack of confidence that also exists in us in order to stand up against the discrimination of the challenges that we face in order to bring about the change. So, you know, I guess some of the women out there, like myself and other women within our community who, I guess, who have fallen and gotten the scars and the bruises and who are now like, actually, no, we're not standing for this any longer. We're standing up and speaking up against it. You know, I'd like to think that we start becoming, you know, inspiration to other people to actually use their own voices as well. And I think sometimes when I know when I saw some of my role models and mentors taking a stand, it gave me the courage that I needed to take my stand, and I hope that it continues to help others. And I think the more that we share our stories, we share our journeys, we share our experiences, I believe we will definitely inspire one another to actually stand up against. Because if she can do it, I can do it, too.
[00:06:46] Speaker B: How important do you think it is for women to have role models within this space?
[00:06:52] Speaker C: It's imperative. I think you cannot do it by yourself. I think that, you know, it 100%. You need your tribe, and I think that, you know, role models, they can help guide you. They can help teach you from the mistakes that they've made. I think, you know, there's a lot that we can learn from in terms of the paths that they have walked. I think that there's a lot that we can learn from so many of the industry icons over the time in terms of, you know, the stumbles that they've made and the learnings that they found from it. You know, the role and the role models. I think role models are one aspect, I think then there's, there's the layer of the mentors, there's your sponsors, there's just your general support structure. And I think that we absolutely cannot do it by ourselves. I think you need to build your own personal community, you know, your own personal board of directors, your own tribe of people who are going to support you through the journey because you need people for a variety of different sources of strength and support and that comes from having the right people around you. And I think we must not be fooled to think that we can do it all by ourselves because, yeah, you probably can, but at some point you're going to need some sort of advice or strength from someone else. And that's where all of these different people come into the equation.
[00:08:01] Speaker B: By seeing the work that women in WMSA has been doing, this is where you come in, in supporting women in creating that community for women within the mining industry. So taking that and going back to previous question about the challenges that women face, how are you as an organization addressing these challenges?
[00:08:23] Speaker C: Yeah, so yes, we are very focused on that community build because we believe that the peer to peer mentoring, learning, support is essential in terms of supporting some of the challenges or helping eliminate those challenges. I think one comes from sharing experiences and sharing some of the, I guess the hard times or the challenges that we experience so that you can learn, you know, others can learn from it.
Sharing the situations that you've been in so that you actually realize it's not just you, you're not alone. Because I think one of the biggest issues we face in our industry is retaining women and retaining the right skill set within the industry. And I think that the more we share, the more we can learn and the more that people can feel that they can persevere.
You know, sometimes you put so much into it and you still get these different blocks, you know, in terms of your career progression or, you know, sometimes you get women getting placed in certain roles because they're supposedly ticking a tick box. Exercise because you need female representation at a certain level or even the fact that, you know, you've got to take development into your own hands because as much as your organization can help develop you, you yourself need to be guided by your own development. So organizations like WUMSA can help support those sorts of things by, by having a community of mentors and sponsors available who want to help. I think by virtue of the fact that somebody is there listening to you, listening to what you're going through and you're able to talk through these things, I genuinely believe it's such an important skill and an important asset in anyone's professional development. Right. I think, you know, we raise a spotlight on so many of these challenges. You know, we create a community of support around gender based violence which is one of the huge issues that exists in our industry. You know, we do a lot of work with the Minerals Council who do some amazing work in terms of creating these Tutuzela care centers to accommodate women who have been through gender based violence. And I think as we shine awareness on these different topics and these different situations, it allows for a greater sense of support into women. Not feeling alone more than anything because sometimes it's very difficult to share your hardships because either you don't want people to know, you don't want to be seen as weak, you don't want to be seen as incapable, you don't want to be seen as a victim. And women's health is that safe space. We've created a very safe community where you can come and be real and be honest and we are here to help and assist. You know, we've got such a strong network of women in our community who are legal professionals, healthcare professionals, you know, you know, mining CEOs, industry leaders, you know, mentors, sponsors and everybody has advice that they can offer and share. They can, you know, we can point you in the right direction of people who can, you know, give you better qualified advice and experiences that can help you navigate through different challenges that you might feel, you know, we've got a string of different coaches, you know, a variety of different people who offer different professional skills. And you know, we've taken the last many years to build that community of people who want to help and give back but also have the right skills in order to assist in those spaces. And I think that's been a big part of the success of what WUMSA has done in the last couple years.
[00:11:30] Speaker B: What progress has been made so far in supporting women within the mining sector?
[00:11:37] Speaker C: I think a lot of progress has been made. I think, you know, the time is now if you want to bring about change. Right. I think we've seen the stats in terms of, you know, we're sitting currently we've gone from about 12% female representation to about 17% female representation. And while the number Seems small. It's a huge step forward. Right. And I think we've got to celebrate the wins for what that is because that means that change is coming. You know, the fact that we are having conversations like this, the fact that, you know, in majority, you know, major mining shows, you know, in different spaces, these thought leadership conversations are being had and acknowledged. I think the fact that there's more female representation at senior leadership roles at board levels, in a variety of different C suite roles and we've seen that representation. You can see the support that it's bringing into the industry and how it's inspiring others to be better and want to be better. And I think that, you know, the fact that mining houses are consciously focused on creating womb communities within their mining house and at their operations are positive steps forward in terms of recognizing that the challenge for females are different, the requirements of what females may need are different. It doesn't mean you can't do the job, but there are certain unique situations that you require something different and there's nothing wrong with that. Right. I hate the conversation of PPE and change houses, but that's such a big conversation because it's still. Some mining houses are still struggling to get that right and we have to do those things better because if we can't get the basics right, how are we ever going to tackle the bigger issues? It's almost impossible. So every time there's a success story and every time that success story is shared, it gives more positivity and empowerment into this industry that we can bring about the change and that it is coming. And I think that's how we lend a lot of support to women in the sector.
[00:13:25] Speaker B: So speaking of the changes that still need to happen, where do you think the industry needs to improve most to make it more inclusive and equitable for women in the sector?
[00:13:35] Speaker C: I think we actually have to do it. We need to stop being so shy and so scared and so, I don't know, apprehensive about embracing female leadership, embracing the mindset that a female leader brings, embracing, you know, empathetic leadership and the change of what is required in order to, I don't know, to live up with what society demands. You know, I think that the ways of the old are done. I think there's still certain things that make sense and obviously there's certain practices and principles of what the industry has that will remain for a long time. But I think that mindsets of yesterday are, yes, it is in the past. And I think we need to start embracing the mindset of what the future holds. I think with every single generation that evolves, we have to evolve with it. And if we don't do it, we're going to be left so far behind. And you know, with the advancement that are taking place in terms of technological advancements in the mining sector, more automation coming into the mining sector, those are like, those are no longer excuses as to why a woman can't do something. You can sit in a very comfortable office and do things from an automated perspective because that's how technology is changing. You don't need to necessarily be in certain spaces that demand you to be, I don't know, physically stronger or whatever it might be. More and more female drill rig operators exist. There's more drone technology that's used within the sector. All of these different technological changes are showing that the change is here, it exists. And we need to start embracing that change and we need to start embracing the different way of doing things, a different way of thinking. In order to bring about bigger changes in industry as a whole, we need to do, we need to start doing.
[00:15:13] Speaker B: And what are some of the long term goals that your organization is working towards to create lasting change for women in mining?
[00:15:21] Speaker C: I think, you know, we continue to look at how we can best support women in the industry, how we can try and help women find the right mentors and coaches so that they can almost personally develop themselves to become the strongest version of themselves, so that they then can go and find the right technical mentors to try and help themselves, you know, empower themselves better to become the best professional version of themselves. Our goal is to try and get women ready to be the next leader in the industry, you know, and how we can best support that as well. We're doing a lot of work in terms of how do we start, you know, screaming and shouting about creating safer spaces for women to work in and how do we now work alongside the industry to bring about that change such that gender based violence is not something we're talking about on a daily basis, that women feel safe and secure when they're going to work because they know that they are in a safe space. We do a hell of a lot of work as well in terms of empowering the generations of the future. We strongly believe in doing work at going back into schools to empower women and get young girls excited about stem. And as we get them excited about science and what the future their futures look like by completing science degrees and getting scientific upskilling and getting them curious about what science is all about, we're now creating the next generation of leaders. We believe very strongly as an organization as well in like, you know, the collaborative work that needs to be done in eliminating the biases in young girls and young boys already at school so that, you know, those biases that exist from a gender perspective have killed at that point already. So when you get into the working world, there's no discrimination about men and women because now we all are peers and we are, we are actually assessed on our merit and our professional capabilities because that's what it's all about. That's how we see the future. You know, as much as women in mining has a huge role to play, why do we need to talk about women in mining? Why don't we talk about the professionals in mining? And how do we get to a place where equality exists for what it is? And we all are there because we have earned our space in being there. And I know it's a beautiful dream and it might be a really long time away, but I don't think it's impossible. And I think with every positive step we take forward, we're getting closer and closer to creating that world that is a society that's free of discrimination and biases. And I think, I think it's something that can be done if we do what we need to do collaboratively.
[00:17:34] Speaker B: Have you seen any shifts in attitudes or policies in the mining industry regarding gender equality?
[00:17:40] Speaker C: 100%. I think there are a lot of mining houses who are taking a stand against it and who are actually putting it in place from a policy perspective, because I do think that that is what it needs to be. I think there are a lot more leaders in the industry that are shifting their thinking and their mindsets as well. And I genuinely believe it starts at the top. And if the leadership doesn't have the right mindset in place and doesn't trickle it all the way down, it's not going to be something that's lived in the DNA of the organization. So you can definitely see the change happening. It may not be happening at the rate that we all want it to, but the change is there, it's tangible. And that's why it's so important to share more of these success stories, so that it then starts having a positive impact in other mining houses as well, other communities as well. Because it's necessary, so it's there. It's just, it requires like multilayer effects from government, from the dmr, from all of the different stakeholders. And as we all come together and bring about that change, it'll be more tangible in the bigger picture as well.
[00:18:36] Speaker B: I think it's important to give women who would like to be within this industry some advice. So what advice would you like to give women who are aspiring to join the mining industry or who are looking to pursue leadership roles within mining?
[00:18:52] Speaker C: I think for women who want to come into the industry, I think do it. I think this is such a phenomenal industry. There's so many opportunities to learn, so many opportunities to grow. And I think, you know, if you are, if you are somebody who's either at school exploring what to do as a career or if you're at university and deciding if I want to continue down this path 100%, I think you need to harness your curiosity and channel it into something that's going to ultimately lead you into one of the most fulfilling careers. But don't be fooled. It's not easy. You've got to work hard, you've got to continue to put in the work, put in the effort, Work on yourself, work on your skills, and you've got to work hard. I think that nothing easy, nothing ever comes easy in life without the hard work. And I think we've all got to make the sacrifices that we need to in order to build those careers. I think that, you know, from a leadership perspective, I think, you know, we've got to focus on. Focus on becoming the best version of who you are before you think you're going to try and lead anyone else. Because I think if we don't understand ourselves and understand who we are and where we're going and why we're going there, it becomes very difficult to lead others. And I think that, you know, you need to have a very clear understanding who you are and comfortable in yourself in order to then take the next step forward. From a leadership perspective, I think that we as women need to also embrace ourselves. Embrace your most authentic self. You're a female. That's your superpower. It's amazing. It's beautiful. Like, lead with that in you. Lead with the feminine feminism, feminism in you, and lead with the strength of being a woman. I think that comes with so many incredible layers of passion, of drive, of empathy, of nurturing, of capability. We had probably the best jugglers that are in the world. And I think, use your superpowers. There's no need for you to be anything other than yourself. And I think that's probably the single biggest leadership advice, is just be yourself because you have the power within you to do it. And I think that this is an industry that gives you so much of fulfillment and there's so much of reward. And the time to be in this industry is now because we are fundamentally bringing about change in the space. And I think it's so exciting because you're part of it. And I think that that's something quite exciting.
[00:21:00] Speaker B: Thank you so much for your time.
[00:21:03] Speaker C: No problem. Thank you very much. It was really great conversation.
[00:21:06] Speaker B: That was Raksha Naidu, CEO of the Particle Group and Chairperson of Women in Mining.
[00:21:12] Speaker A: Thank you for joining us. Remember to subscribe to Deep Insights on all podcast platforms. Also, for the latest mining news, analysis and insight, visit miningreview.com until next time. Goodbye.
